STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
People fired last week at the State Department include our next guest. He's a longtime diplomat and one of more than 1,000 people shown the door. Deputy Secretary of State Michael Rigas testified about this in the Senate yesterday.
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MICHAEL RIGAS: I don't think we take any joy in laying people off or any kind of reduction in force, but we have to do what's best for the mission. We have to do what's best for the organization.
INSKEEP: That was the reason to let go of John Dinkelman, among others. Mr. Dinkelman is in our studios. He happens to be the newly elected head of the American Foreign Service Association, a kind of union representing foreign service officers. Thanks for coming by Studio 31. Welcome.
JOHN DINKELMAN: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
INSKEEP: Congratulations on concluding your government service. I'm trying to put a positive spin on this. How did you find out?
DINKELMAN: Well, it was 10:53 on Friday morning. I was sitting at my computer. And all of a sudden, a little click came and notified me that I had about six hours to clear out and not let the door hit me as I left.
INSKEEP: Did you - I know that layoffs were anticipated. Did you expect to be laid off yourself?
DINKELMAN: They were. And, you know, I've been with the organization for 37 years. And it was evident that you can easily put an old warhorse out to pasture much more easily than other people, but it still came as quite of a shock, yeah.
INSKEEP: Did you think that you were targeted for being the head of the union?
DINKELMAN: I can't speculate as to why they fired me. But I certainly can say that it - after devoting one's life to an organization and to represent the core precepts of the United States overseas, it was a heck of a way to be shown the door.
INSKEEP: And to be told to fire - to leave by the end of the day. I want to be a little bit ruthless about this, though, and point out lots of people listening have been laid off at some point. People get fired. People lose their jobs.
DINKELMAN: Sure.
INSKEEP: The job outlasts the need for the job - that sort of thing. And I know there had been a longtime feeling that the State Department was not very efficient, not very effective, needed to change, needed to reform. If we can step outside your own feelings about this for the moment and just look coolly at this agency that you know so well, did it need some reform?
DINKELMAN: Oh, of course. There's always been a need in most aspects of our federal government for reform, but there's a way to do it. There are long-established processes. Even if you're shortsighted enough to want to cut America's diplomatic core, there are actually prescribed ways to do that, where individuals are measured for their performance and their capabilities and they're separated for whatever need the government might have. No one disputes that the president has the right to move his diplomatic corps in the direction he wants. And layoffs are part, as you say, of every aspect of American life, including the federal government. But there are methods to such madness, and those were not adhered to.
INSKEEP: Does that make any difference to the United States' standing in the world or its ability to get its message out to the world?
DINKELMAN: Unquestionably. The truth is that if you don't have enough people on the playing field, you're going to lose the game. And I fear that losing 1,300 foreign service professionals, civil service professionals, international affairs professionals in a world that is increasingly chaotic is a very, very bad move for our country.
INSKEEP: The administration has made it clear that it sees the civil service as an enemy. That's how they perceive civil servants. They're part of the deep state being disloyal. And, of course, we can find many quotes to back that up. I'm not making a presumption. You served as a diplomat in the first Trump administration. You were serving in the second administration. Were you comfortable doing that?
DINKELMAN: I have been - I've been comfortable serving every president since 1988. Of course, as an individual, I have my own opinions about all of their policies. But frankly, as a commissioned officer of the United States government, it was my duty to carry out the needs of our administrations, whatever they might be. And I am confident that the professionals in both the foreign and the civil service in the State Department were anything but enemies of the state.
INSKEEP: Do you remain head of the union even though you've lost the underlying job?
DINKELMAN: That's an interesting one in that it used to be that the head of the union was simply an assignment that would be done for every one or two years, and then the individuals would rotate back. In my case, however, since the executive order of March 27, I will no longer be able to encumber both positions and will be separated.
INSKEEP: And do you think that union can continue to be an effective force?
DINKELMAN: Most definitely. It's not just the union. It's the professional organization. In the same way the American Bar Association meets the needs of our lawyers, the American Foreign Service Association does that for our diplomats.
INSKEEP: John Dinkelman, longtime U.S. diplomat who served around the world, lost his job on Friday. Thanks for - very much for coming by this morning. Appreciate it.
DINKELMAN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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