MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
House Speaker Mike Johnson has fired the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee. That would be Ohio Congressman Mike Turner. Turner has, at times, been a critic of President-elect Trump, a fierce defender of the intelligence community and a defense hawk who supports ongoing aid to Ukraine. NPR political correspondent Susan Davis is in the studio. Hey, Sue.
SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: Hey, there.
KELLY: What was the stated rationale behind the speaker's decision to oust Turner from a job he seemed to keep wanting to do?
DAVIS: Well, Turner says he clearly thinks it was personal. He told CBS that, in his meeting with the speaker, the speaker told him that there was, quote, "concerns from Mar-a-Lago," directly alluding to the fact that Trump may have had direct involvement in this decision. The speaker denied that. He talked to reporters in the Capitol last night. He heaped praise on Turner. He said he had done a great job as committee chair - that this was not a negative reflection on him - but that it was time, in his words, for fresh horses in certain key policy areas.
And look, as you all know, Mary Louise, Donald Trump is deeply skeptical of the intelligence establishment. And congressmen like Mike Turner is seen as someone who's just more closely aligned with that establishment than the MAGA reform movement.
KELLY: More closely aligned with that establishment - what do you mean?
DAVIS: I mean, he's more a part of the old guard of the Republican Party when it comes to foreign policy. He doesn't really share the MAGA movement's America-first ideology. For example, he's been a defender of the NATO alliance. He's been a deep critic of Russia and President Vladimir Putin. He was also a central figure in the last Congress in renewing a controversial federal law that allows surveillance on foreign targets that has also been opposed by a lot of people on the right over fears of domestic overreach.
The bottom line, I think, is he's just sort of out of lockstep with both the incoming president and his speaker on certain issues. And in that regard, it's not a huge shock that he would not be returning to this job.
KELLY: Although, step back and just give us the context. How common is something like this in Congress - for a committee chairman to essentially be punished?
DAVIS: In the Senate, it would be highly unusual. But frankly, in the House, it's pretty common. Committee chairmanships are pretty political jobs. And in this committee in particular, the Intelligence Committee is what's known as a select committee. And what that means is that the people that serve on it serve at the pleasure of party leaders. The speaker uniquely decides who's on it. So they are almost an extension of party leadership and the people in power, and Turner doesn't exactly fit that mold.
The intelligence chairman - he was also appointed by former speaker, Kevin McCarthy. He was sort of seen as a McCarthy guy, so it's also not that unusual that Speaker Johnson would want to put one of his own people in place.
KELLY: OK, so Speaker Johnson well within his rights here.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KELLY: What about President Trump's alleged role? I mean, Congress, obviously, as the legislative branch, they're supposed to serve as a check...
DAVIS: Sure.
KELLY: ...On the executive branch. Is it not unusual for a president to concern himself with committee assignments in Congress?
DAVIS: It's very unusual. I can't think of an example of a past president doing so, but Trump operates like no other. Trump has also made clear that he wants people more loyal to his worldview, especially in these national security roles. So look at this decision in the broader context here. Donald Trump has tapped former Democratic congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard to be his director of national intelligence. She still has to be confirmed by the Senate. He's also asked former congressman and intelligence chairman Devin Nunes - also a deep critic of the intelligence community - to chair a new advisory board in his administration.
These are people who are critics of the intelligence world and that foreign surveillance law and its potential abuses. They're seen as reformers. Obviously, this is going to open Republicans up to criticism that something nefarious is afoot here. Jim Himes - he's the top Democrat on the committee - said it was a terrible sign of what's to come. But I think this is generally a reflection of the bigger shift that is coming in this arena as Trump prepares to take office.
KELLY: Just briefly, Sue, what do we need to know about Rick Crawford? That is the Arkansas congressman who apparently is going to be the new chair of the Intelligence Committee.
DAVIS: Well, he comes from a much more conservative district than Turner. He's been on the committee for about a decade, so he's prepared for the job. Like Turner, I'd note, he did also support that federal surveillance law last year. But unlike Turner, he's been a critic of Ukraine aid. He voted against it. And he's also seen as someone who's more closely aligned to Speaker Mike Johnson.
KELLY: NPR's Susan Davis - thanks, Sue.
DAVIS: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
